"Provably Fair" theory...

Last post made 1 month ago by SinMore
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  • waynemasters
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  • I had a few things I wanted to talk about, but needed to address on separate posts. Let's talk about "Provably Fair" casinos, and the theory that it actually is a fair way to proof how you won, or lost while playing a game. 

    When I first started playing at Stake.com, for example, I became acquaintances with Eddie Miroslav, who also started PrimeDice.com, we talked on a regular basis on Telegram, if I needed a comp, boosts, he would always help, and while I had one or two handsome cashouts, the games were all made by his team, coded by programmers who are all a part of the same "Brotherhood." Then Stake was sold to a different company, licensed in Curacao, and a large integration of platforms were introduced - Pragmatic Play, NetEnt, Wazdan, etc. Stake "prided itself" on the whole "Provably Fair" model. When you would challenge support with the questionability and legitimacy of this type of system vs. a regulated RNG, they would just send you a link made by their programmers, for their programmers. 

    Having worked in the land based industry for almost two decades, I've had my fill of our own patrons who'd have a bad gaming session, citing that we "tightened up" the games, that we controlled this, when the bottom line is that could be the farthest truth from reality.

    Most casino patrons don't realise that at a brick and mortar casino, that when you sit down at a slot machine, you add your cash into the machine and get ready to play, before you even hit the "max bet" button - the outcome of the spin outcome that you are about to see was determined by the last play that the last patron playing that game when they cashed out. Make sense? In simpler terms, the RNG has determined the outcome for the next patron to play before they even sit down to play the game. Call it the, "outcome result of a slot machine in arrears."

    Most patrons have never seen a PAR sheet for a slot machine. This is issued from the manufacturer for each specific machine, the payout percentage, the "hit frequency", etc. of what your patrons will be playing on. I've attached one which is provided by Bally's popular "Blazing 7's" 3 credit machine that became one of the most successful slot machines of all time among casino patrons. I'm using this strictly as an example of any given land based casino, in any given land based casino. 

    All slot machines in a land based casino act independently of one another, and each slot machine has its own assigned PAR sheet. For the purposes of our discussion here, we're discussing a Bally's Blazing 7's slot machine at any given land based slot machine. This is a three reel, one line, 3 credit game. The attached PAR sheet is fairly self explanatory to me, but to somebody who is new, this can look confusing. The first column  indicates the three reel strips, and on each strip there are 16 symbols. So, on reel 1 there are 16 symbols, reel 2 there are 16 symbols, reel 3 there are 16 symbols. Then to the right are the reel "Factors", or how many times this Blazing 7's machine will hit those symbol combinations over about the "life" of this machine. This guarantees that our players will experience these pre-programmed outcomes within the time the machine is on our casino floor. 

    The "Provably Fair" theory is a completely different story. Can you verify that a hash was predetermined? Maybe. Who programmed and designed that hash? A programmer. I think the whole idea is just a complete farce. What's more, any site that uses a platform like IGT, Pragmatic Play, NetEnt, etc., these games operate on an RNG on the servers of the platform. There is no way to make these games "Provably Fair", because its just not possible. For a site like Stake, bc.game, PrimeDice, their original games, yes... the integrated brand platforms, no. 

    So proprietary games designed by programmers, verified and decided outcomes made and programmed by programmers with no actual legitimacy checks in place to verify other than, "yes, this was the "supposed" hash" that determined your win/loss... No, I don't think so. When you walk into our casino, we have legal supporting documentation for each game on our floor to show what outcomes a slot machine has. This isn't something that those sites who claim to be "Provably Fair" can say. 

    So the next time you see "Provably Fair", take that with a grain of salt because it means absolutely nothing to the legitimate gaming World.

  • Interesting topic... Playing games in a land-based casino and at an online casino are, at least for me, two completely different experiences. Thanks for sharing your story based on your personal experience and knowledge in the land-based industry, but I still believe the online gaming can't be that black, I mean there are so many regulations and procedures that need to be fulfilled on the operators' side (casino and game developers), but we also need to do our own research if the casino is licensed, not offering pirated games, payout terms, not crossing the personal budget, etc.. and believe in luck :) Who knows the lucky combination could be just around the corner money

  • I thank-you for your reply, Bubbles! You're right about the online vs. land based casino experience. Our casino now has an online app where you can play from home, and from our patrons points of view, they tell us that the payout percentages are better than on site. By the numbers, there's really no difference, but that's the experience that they cite.

    As for this provably fair theory, I just don't buy it. And strictly speaking from being in and working for a casino in The States (Pennsylvania), our games and sportsbook (on property and online) are all strictly monitored, tested and governed by the Pennsylvania Gaming Control Board. Our games are randomly pulled off the floor, sent to the State Gaming Lab to be tested routinely, there is a PGCB Office and Officer on site for any patron to file a complaint against us, to make a suggestion to improve gaming, ask questions of any nature pertaining to casinos within the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. To play "real money" games on our app, a patron mut be geolocated to be within the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. As an industry, we are over-regulated to ensure patron protection at all levels, including problem gambling.

    Our site uses many of the popular platforms, like NetEnt, AGS, Bally's, WMS, IGT, 888, etc. I will guarantee you that the providers linked to our site have been tested by, and are monitored 24/7 by the PGCB. Nothing gets by the PGCB. Nothing. The same cannot be said about the limited offshore casinos offered in The States at the current time. I agree that researching and doing ones due diligence is very important, but there is a lot of things that are left to be desired by what's available to American players playing offshore. Sure, the manufacturers try their best, but there are just too many instances where I have personally seen things that occur offshore that would trigger our app to be "Shut down for maintenance" by the PGCB.

    But, as for me, I'm 50 and my generation is being replaced by things that when I started in the business would make anybody's head spin haha... I'll still take our RNG, PAR sheets anyday over a "Provably Fair" site anyday, every time.

    My best to you!

  • Thanks waynemasters, wishing all the best to you too :)

    Just to be clear, not trying to get in a fight here :) but I think everyone would say the same best things about 'their casino' ..strictly monitored, regulated, tested, approved.. So there is quite a lot to be fulfilled for the casino to be able to perform online and get licensed.

    As for me casinos that go through the trouble of getting their software tested, and audited by third parties are giving their best to ensure their players that RNG is indeed fair. Of course, it is up to each and every one of us to believe in all that :)

  • Hi Bubbles, 

    Thanks for your reply again :) I didn't mean to sound brash, and I did, I'm very sorry. I love this industry on so many levels that it's hard to explain. As in most jurisdictions, it is illegal for me to play at our casino, or on our online app. One thing I will say that does set us apart from the rest, is all of our match bonuses come with only one requirement... a rollover of 1x, and no maximum cashout. Of the 14 land based casinos within the Commonwealth, this is one gold medal our app can claim... other apps of our competitors (within Pennsylvania) have rollovers of 10x, 20x or higher.

    But in Pennsylvania, we're only two years into this venture, so the teething pains have been there for all of us. I agree with you about sites that do give their patrons peace of mind in fairness, openness with respect to their games. This is imperative. But in The States, many of the offshore sites don't fall into this category leaving many patrons out in the cold. 

    My hope is that online gaming legalities are solved in The States, the laws of 2004 are repealed, and allow the sites that use iron clad platforms like Microgaming back here. But, we're talking about the US government haha... they are never quick to act, with the exception of taxing, and collecting taxes ;o)

  • I think Provably fair works best on an online poker table, Hold'em for example, where multiple players are involved in the game. From what I gathered, each player "contributes" to each shuffle therefore the cards can not be manipulated. Am I right? 

  • Thanks for sharing this story. There is an interested theory. I will search for more information about this theory.

    Best regards

  • None of this is probably fair. The definition of fair debunks the theory. The con of capitalism. As much as I like the idea of capitalism it has managed to give birth to the misuse of words and their actual terminology. Probably fair does not exist in the realm of gambling, and such statements are misleading and unnecessary.

  • The term is "provably fair" not "probably" lol

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